Understanding Body Dysmorphic Disorder with Dr. Toni Pikoos

 Understanding Body Dysmorphic Disorder with Dr. Toni Pikoos

 

Trish 

Hello listeners. It’s Trish Hammond here from the Transforming Bodies podcast. And today, I’m joined by the delightful Dr. Toni Pikoos and Toni is actually a clinical psychologist, and I actually met her at a conference a few years ago talking about where she was talking about body dysmorphic disorder. I’ve been trying to get on this podcast. So today, we’re gonna be chatting with hers, and we’re gonna chat well, we’re just gonna chat about all things, body dysmorphic disorder sort of thing. So welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. How are you?

 

Dr Toni

Thank you. Thanks so much, Trish. Very excited to be here chatting with you again.

 

Trish

Me too. I’m so excited to have you here and this is just a topic of content. I mean, it always has been, but I think now people have become more aware of body dysmorphic disorder but can you start, first off, tell us like, first of all, how you started to decide to become a clinical psychologist and how you can go to PHD as well? So what took you into the area and why and and all that?
So can you give us a bit of background about that?

 

Dr Toni

Of course. So clinical psychology, I think, I was always interested in doing something that involved helping people in some capacity. And initially, I had planned to actually be a doctor and I started studying medicine. And while I was in it, I was like, oh, this is great, but I didn’t like the idea of only having, like, such short periods of time with a patient. Like, if I was gonna be a GP, you’d have 10 minutes and that was about it. And I really wanna take time to actually get to know people and know their stories and be able to see them over the long term. And so that kind of drew me more to the psychology path, and I decided to swap out medicine and pursue that instead. And then when I started studying psychology, the body dysmorphic disorder side of things actually just happened by chance. Feel really lucky that it sort of worked out that way.
But the supervisor that I was working with for my research, Professor Susan Russell, is an expert in body dysmorphia and the more that I spoke to her about it, she suggested some research topics that were looking a bit more at BDD, which is the acronym for it. And so I just started reading a bit more and then started seeing patients myself and then I found it just absolutely fascinating that often I’d be sitting down with people who were beautiful, like very physically attractive in a lot of cases, and they would tell me about all of the things that they hated about themselves. And they’d be pointing out all of their flaws and all of these things that were making them so self conscious. And I would be looking at them and be like, I don’t understand what you’re seeing. Like, I’m seeing something completely different here. So that really got me interested in, like, okay, what is going on and how can we support these people to love themselves or at least like themselves a little bit more than they do. And so that sparks my passion there. And then as soon as you start talking to people who have struggled with body dysmorphia or reading the research, cosmetic surgery always comes up as well. Because we know lots of people with BDD because they feel really self conscious about a part of themselves that they see as being flawed or problematic. Often they turn to cosmetic surgery or plastic surgery as the solution. And really the issue is about their perception and what their brain is telling them they look like rather than what they actually look like from the outside. 

 

Trish

So status is a fine job as well though. And I guess some because now you’re a mom, congratulations. And so it is something that’s instilled as a like, can we change the way that our kids think by just in some sort of way to stop them from having body dysmorphic disorder.

 

Dr Toni

Of course.

 

Trish

Is that where it starts? 

 

Dr Toni

Yeah. I think it’s so hard to pin it down to one particular starting point because certainly, like, our families and the people around us and the way that they talk about their bodies and treat their bodies or other people’s bodies makes a difference so a lot of us grow up. We might have seen a mum or an aunt or a cousin or a dad criticising themselves, looking in the mirror pulling bits of fat and being like, oh, look at these, thunder thighs or my love handles. And when we see other people talking about their bodies that way, we begin to learn the message from quite a young age that, hey, this isn’t right. We shouldn’t have this. And so certainly, parents can make a difference to their children’s body image just by speaking about bodies in much more neutral ways or not even necessarily positive ways, but just there’s some people who are fat, some people are thin, some people are tall, some people are short, and that’s okay. But it’s not just about, I guess, the family environment. We know that obviously the media plays a huge role in social media. So it’s just we can try to protect our little ones. By the way, when we speak about bodies and body image at home, there are a set of things that happen online as well so that we’re kind of fighting against that too.

 

Trish

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And I think I meant to before, like, so I run a plastic surgery group. And there’s about it,  it’s women only because it’s showing their own breasts and just sharing their own story rather than their own bodies. So we’ve kept it, we’ve made it, you’ve got to be, that says female to be able to join it. And one of the things that comes up all the time is, like, people say, oh, actually, I saw a post a couple of weeks ago, and the girl said, oh, I don’t like my, what I’ve got something with the chin, what can I get done to fix it? And me, I’ll look at her and think, oh my god, she’s gorgeous. She doesn’t need anything, but it’s not about that. It’s about how she feels about herself and like, what can you say to someone like that just as the average layperson? Because, of course, you don’t wanna diminish their feelings towards the way that they’re feeling about themselves, but you sort of I don’t know. Is there anything that we can do as a normal person?

 

Dr Toni

Yeah. It’s so hard as well because your beauty is so subjective. And so even somebody else,  if you had to put up a picture of yourself, Trish, and say, what can I do to fix my face or enhance my face? You’d get a million different opinions. You’d get lots of people saying, you’re perfect just the way you are. You’d get some people say, make your lips bigger or you’re no smaller or all sorts of things and so I think putting it down to that and saying, look, like, it’s clear that this individual is worried about their appearance and you can validate the distress they’re experiencing. I’m so sorry that you’re feeling self conscious right now. I can see that, you’re feeling a bit more sensitive about the way that you look. But I’m not sure how helpful it will be for me to point out something. The main thing is for you to feel good in yourself, and that can come from the way that you look at your physical appearance and feeling good about that, but that can also come from lots of different areas. And so the thing, particularly if it’s a friend or a family member or someone that you know a little bit more about it. Like, emphasising their non physical qualities that are beautiful about them as well or things that you really appreciate about their smile that lights up the room or the way that they listen really well when you have a problem that they’re actually a really good listener. I think when we focus not only on the physical but also on all of these non physical things that make us special, that make us unique, that can help to build up people’s confidence. Sometimes shifting the conversation in that direction can be helpful. I think it’s rarely helpful to be telling other people what to fix about their appearance. Though, unfortunately and that’s something that I see comes up in these forums and Facebook groups a lot on that. Obviously, coming from a really vulnerable place. You’re at home. You’re feeling really self critical. You’ve had a bad day and maybe you’re looking for a bit of reassurance. Maybe you want people to tell you, No, you don’t need to fix anything. You’re perfect. But either way, we know that reassurance, whether it’s positive, like, you’re perfect. You don’t need to change or yes. You definitely need bigger lips or smaller lips. Either way, it’s not really helpful. Unfortunately. 

 

Trish

Which is really funny you should say it because I remember when I first went to see someone. She was an injector, a local injector. And I went there, and I remember I was 44 years old, and I just hadn’t even kind of stepped into the aesthetics.
It just wasn’t kind of you know, I always want to look good, but I wasn’t actually looking at anti ageing preventative stuff. It wasn’t in my mindset then, and I was 44 then and I’m 60 now, so it’s like 16 years ago. And I remember walking in and just being rather thin, what do you think I need? And I was expecting you don’t need to think, you look fine the way you are. And then she said, well, just brown and then she’s like flowers. She’s oh, we can’t have that. And she was like, you know, this looks like, holy heck. But once you are exposed to something you can’t unhear it if that makes any sense. And so that, of course, not blaming her at all because I sort of went in there probably, what do I need? Like, how good do I look already? And I didn’t get that. But having said that, on the complete opposite spectrum, when I’ve gone to have some plastic surgery procedures, because being a massive weight loss patient. I’ve found that the plastic surgeon has always said, well, what is it that I can help you with? And then they’re listening to me as opposed to them making suggestions, and then they’re kind of guiding you to your procedure. So what you’ve said resonates one hundred percent with me, but I only relate it to the injectables compared to the surgery. But there are tools like, there’re tools these days that can actually help include that practitioner should use. Is that right? Like questionnaires and can tell you more about that?

 

Dr Toni

Of course. Yeah. So there’s been lots of changes obviously going on in the whole cosmetic industry over the last couple of years. And one of the things that they’re sort of taking interest now with these new guidelines from the medical board, which has changed the way surgeons and injectors operate. That we want to protect patients’ safety. And so what that means is tuning in a bit more to patient mental health or their psychological well-being and seeing if that might be playing a role in why they’re wanting that procedure. And if it is, then offering them more support along the way. So one sort of body dysmorphic disorders, obviously, one can in that we know is strongly associated with reduced satisfaction, with cosmetic procedures. So when people have body dysmorphia, even though they think that surgery is the answer. It unfortunately doesn’t usually fix their perception of themselves and people can be left feeling much worse or regretting that they had a procedure or the surgery done. So part of the new guidelines is that cosmetic practitioners should be screening their patients for body dysmorphic disorder beforehand. And if they if it’s identified, it doesn’t mean that the person can’t get the procedure or can’t get the surgery, but the picture be referred on for a further discussion with a mental health professional before going ahead with anything. And I think that’s raised some really interesting questions. Certainly, over the last few months, I’ve been working very heavily in this space and through ReadyMind as well, which is my business where we do the assessments for patients who want to get cosmetic surgery or a procedure. But we also have screening software for cosmetic practitioners and questionnaires to help them assess their patients. I’ve heard lots of different things from both patients and practitioners about these new guidelines. And I think one major concern is that people feel like maybe it takes away patient autonomy a little bit. Like, the right to make decisions about themselves. And I think the way that I see it is that, actually, we’re sort of giving patients back their autonomy because when that you’re feeling really vulnerable and you might go in for a consult, fix me or what can I do? I actually think at that moment, potentially, you don’t have autonomy. You’re feeling so vulnerable that you’re willing to sort of take on any advice or feedback that you’re getting wrong. The surgeon or the practitioner, particularly in the wrong hands. And so this is just to slow down the process and say, hey, let’s have a bit more of a chat about this. And let’s not just talk about your physical appearance, but let’s talk about what’s going on more broadly and how you’re feeling about yourself and how we can support you to feel your best. Whether that’s through the aesthetic treatment or if there are other options as well. So it’s much more holistic and helps people to make a decision with all of that information.

 

Trish

Mhmm. Well, interesting that you said it because say, for example, if someone is identified with body dysmorphic disorder and you think, oh, okay, well, this person shouldn’t be having surgery because it’s not going to do any good. Then, like, can it not be that big stuff? I was like, can they be fixed? Because what will happen is if they’re not gonna get that surgery and the person wants to, they’re gonna go overseas or there’s someone that’s gonna do it for them. Do you know what I mean? And then that’s adding another layer of danger to what could happen because then they’re gonna come back and they might not I don’t know. Anything could happen. I guess anything could happen with any surgery anyway, but still it’s sort of like it’s almost like we’re giving help, but is that taking it away from them as well? 

 

Dr Toni

Yeah. So I think I mean, ideally, anytime a person’s identified with body dysmorphic disorder during this process, they should be offered additional support as well. So whether that’s, we can do some therapy. We can do therapy for 10 sessions, 12 sessions, 6 sessions, or even just a few and then let’s reassess about the surgery or the procedure that you’re wanting to have so that there’s some sort of plan in place that it’s not, no, you can never have this procedure because then, of course, if you really wanted it. If you’re sure that’s what you need at that time. You’ll find someone to do it. But I think it’s a tricky one. Certainly, there will be people who will go overseas or who will find someone to do the surgery for them. But I think sometimes what we’re doing is just planting the seed that they then go away and they’re thinking about it and there might be the part of them that still really wants that surgery or procedure, but the other part of them that say, oh, that surgeon though who I really trusted told me that maybe I shouldn’t get it right now. And that might be at the back of their mind. Yeah. And that might open up an avenue for them to do some other work on themselves. Whether it’s not at the time of the consult might happen a few weeks later, a few months, maybe years later. I think they sort of opened up their thinking about it. Yeah, which I think does make a difference. But also, I think the alternative is not having any safeguards in place means that in Australia, lots of people with body dysmorphia will get surgeries or procedures that they don’t necessarily need and might leave them in a worse position. So hopefully, it’s the lesser of two evils, I think.

 

Trish

Yep. Yep. That’s so true. And, I mean, ultimately, the thing is to not like, to sort of because people that are like that because I know that I can be a bit I mentioned to you before, like, I lost 60 kgs and I look at photos of myself before, and I’m unrecognisable to myself, but then by the same token, I’ll look at myself in the morning, get up in my stomach because I’m not and I’m still as flat as I ever felt in my life. Like, I just cannot see that, I know that I’m a lesser person, but in my mind, I’m still that person who likes to go when I go looking in the shops.
The first thing I do is limit, because I’ll always go to the back of the rack because that’s what I’ve done, for the majority of my life. So it’s some, does that ever is that ever gonna change? Or do I just need to accept that I need to stop and think about things before I’ll go out and get something done or it’s kind of like a whole it’s like it’s crazy.

 

Dr Toni

It is, absolutely. And I think that’s such a common experience that you had as well that, like, even though your external appearance might change. The way you feel internally can take time to catch up or perhaps it doesn’t just change automatically. You actually have to do the work on that part of yourself. Get the changes that you’re looking for and the external change doesn’t quite fix. The consciousness, maybe that you’re feeling or yeah, that mentality of like, okay, I always go to the back of the rack. That might take a bit of effort to practise and change.

 

Trish

Yeah. And then I’ll put something on it. It’ll be a 12 on my back and oh my god. This is too big and I’ll hold the tent up and I think no way is enough. And I’m like, oh my god.
It’s a science brick and tan. Like, what the heck? You know? And of course, that’ll keep me happy for a few days. Like, it’s so funny how we bring our own happiness to ourselves, like just in that vanity mentality, I guess, or I don’t know if that’s the right word.

Dr Toni

Of course, often what I talk to people about, even before they’ve gone ahead and had a procedure or a surgery is, what would you ideally like to be doing differently? Of feeling differently. What sort of life would you like to be living in that new body or with new breasts? You know, what would your day to day look like? And is it possible to start to do some of that even before you’ve had the surgery? So you know, it might be common, people in bigger bodies often feel so conscious of wearing certain types of clothing. Maybe it’s wearing a singlet. They never allow themselves to wear a singlet and they hope that, after they’ve lost x amount of weight, they’ll be able to wear those singlets. So I would really encourage them to actually start trying to wear that now. And get comfortable wearing that now even in the body that you’re in. So that, when your body changes, it doesn’t feel like such a big step to do that. You realise, like, I can wear these clothes, I can go out to that restaurant, or go to that party, regardless of what my body looks like because there’s more to me than just that physical feature. That could help people sometimes with the adjustment.

 

Trish

And do you reckon, like, what makes me like, what makes my brain or why is my brain different too? I’ve got a girlfriend who just doesn’t care about, like, she’s just happy to be who she is? How she is, and she doesn’t care about anything like that. And she’s, like, one of my best friends and I’m the complete opposite, like, what’s different about us? Like, we’re best friends, you know, like, in but we’re complete opposites.

 

Dr Toni

Yeah. Well, you’re definitely not alone. We know, like, obviously, most women in general, but men as well, and all genders. It’s very common to have things that we don’t like about our bodies. So I’m or even your friend who feels really comfortable, I’m sure there would be things if she had to to nitpick that she’s not quite happy with. So that societal impact plays a big role, like the advertising that we see in media magazines, how bodies are portrayed, all of us are exposed to that. But everyone develops an eating disorder or body dysmorphia or has extreme body image concerns. And so sometimes that comes back. Sometimes it’s just a genetic thing, potentially it runs in the family or there’s some sort of genetic predisposition. Sometimes it might be about your upbringing or messages that you might have learned about appearance growing up.

That can play a role and make one person a bit more susceptible than another. Usually, it’s a whole combination of factors and it’s sometimes hard for us to pinpoint. Oh, yes. It was that one thing that meant that you feel more self conscious than another.

 

Trish

Yeah. Well, funny because I do remember from childhood because I’m a grandmother now. So I’ve got grandbabies and I’ve got boys and girls and and I’m like, I try not to say the word fat or like, I just I’ll try to kind of keep the personal appearance out of, you know, although I haven’t said that, I’ve got of one granddaughter, and she’s the princess, and it’s always about the way she looks and she likes to pose pop up for a book. It’s just who she is, what I mean? She’s a little dancer and that’s who she is and she’s always gonna wanna put makeup on and stuff like that because that’s just who she is. But I remember my grandmother saying to me because I was big as a child. Well, I didn’t later on or after, I don’t know, 8 or whatever. I was big as a child. And she said to me, go on, eat that, eat that, eat that chocolate then see how fat you can get.
And I’d be like, I will. And I would just like, you know, just for the spot. I’d be like, yeah, I will. And I can remember vividly what she used to tell me. And I started saying it to my daughter and, like, when she was a little until I realised I thought, oh my god. That is so the wrong thing to say because I was so conditioned to sort of teach what we’ve learned. So it’s a real struggle for me to not say things like that, which sounds really bad, but it just genuinely is. So we have to be careful what we feed our children as in words.

 

Dr Toni

Yes. Totally. And I again, I don’t think you’re alone with this at all, is that a lot of the time if we wanna develop a healthier relationship with our bodies and help our children do the same. It involves a lot of unlearning first because these messages are so strong and it’s we’re in a generation now, I guess, where body positivity and body acceptance is spoken about and it’s becoming more and more prominent. It wasn’t like that in the past.  So we all have these sorts of intergenerational influences, like negative messaging about bodies that we have to work on and learn.

 

Trish

So what would you just say to someone who is sort of like, what would be the first step to someone who’s sort of like, oh, I wanna have this surgery, but I’m really worried about it. And do I really need it? Or know, who’s someone who’s in doubt and doesn’t know where that is?
And like, what would you suggest that they do first, like, do you reckon you should go and speak to someone first or speak to say for the surgery? Speak to a surgeon or I mean, generally, like, anything I’ve ever had done, I’ve been wanting it for years and years and years, it’s been, like I’ve had massive boobs and, of course, got bigger. And then as I lost weight, they got bigger and longer and longer. So for me, that was what I’d wanted for nearly twenty years, even more than that, actually, because I had big boobs. But, yeah, and so what would you say to someone? What would be the first step if they’re just unsure?

 

Dr Toni

Yeah. I mean, a lot of the time people start with their research on the Internet. Don’t thank us. I’m googling things and looking at forums which can be helpful in one way, obviously, the Internet has a wealth of information. You can also read a lot of unhelpful stuff on the Internet. And once you’ve been researching for so long, I think people can really convince themselves that this is the procedure that they need before they’ve even spoken to someone about whether it’s really appropriate for them or whether there might be an alternative. So I think, do a little bit of research, but don’t go too far down that rabbit hole before talking to someone about it. I think the starting point could be with a surgeon, particularly if it’s a surgeon that you’ve had recommendations for and you trust. But to go on saying, look, I’m not ready to make any bookings for this. I’m not ready to commit to having this done, but I just wanna sort of discuss it and see if it’s right for me and ask some questions agents. And then I think it can be really helpful to have an external person who doesn’t gain anything. They’re not getting paid for getting the surgery. I think it can be helpful to have a chat with them, and that might be a psychologist. It could even just be a trusted friend or family member. And talk through the motivations for the procedure. You know, why are you thinking about this? How long have you been thinking about it for? What some of your expectations are and what you’re hoping will change afterwards. And so certainly, when I do these assessments, like, if you speak to a psychologist, who has experience in this area, they can really help to explore whether those expectations are realistic. You know, maybe it’s that you’re hoping you’re gonna find a new partner after getting this surgery. And that would be the most realistic expectation. You can have someone who knows a bit about the area to help guide you and help develop more realistic goals before going ahead and starting that journey. So, yeah, I think psychologists are a great resource. I think sometimes people feel nervous because they’re like, well, I don’t have a mental illness, but I don’t need to go see a psychologist. But we can obviously do a lot more than just deal with the call. So it can be helpful for that as well.

 

Trish

Yeah. I think it should be part of it for the mental health plan that you just need. It’s good to have someone who’s talked to that’s got no skin in the game, that’s even for advice and stuff like that just because that they’re not part of your family. They’re not part of your friend group. They’re just someone that you can actually speak to and get sort of into psychology. Yeah. I’ve had many times in my life where I’ve needed to go and see someone just to get that neutral advice as well. 

 

Dr Toni

So, yeah, that neutrality because I don’t have anything to gain or lose whether or not the patient gets a surgery. It doesn’t make any difference to me. I’m not gonna get money for it. And so it can really help to explore in that safe environment, whereas Emily and friends might be saying, no, you absolutely don’t need that or you have people saying, yes, go and get it.
I mean, a general injector also has a bit of an interest there and so having that neutral perspective can be really helpful.

 

Trish

Yeah. No. That’s true. And so, say for example, is your service available online? Like, because I don’t know about it because I live in the Northern rivers, I live around the Byron Bay area.
So to get in somewhere is freaking impossible. Like, you can’t get in, like, forever. Like, it’s just and that’s what everything really you know? Yeah. So how, like, how accessible is a service like that?

 

Dr Toni

Yeah. So my goal has been to make it as accessible as possible, particularly with all of these new guidelines that came in. I think people are really concerned or there’s gonna be lots of people who need to see a psychologist for an assessment for surgery or want to see them. 

And he’s gonna be able to get in anywhere. So we have a team of 5 psychologists at the moment who are all available via Telehealth. And so Australia wide rural city based, and we can see people within a couple of weeks. So it can be really quick to get in, at least for that initial discussion, and the initial assessment. Sometimes that’s all that people need. It’s just that one hour chat to sort of have a discussion about the motivations and get a clear head about what you’re thinking. Sometimes people might want a bit more support. And so if it is that ongoing support, there might be a little bit of a longer wait. Sometimes to get that, but usually that actual appointment can happen really quickly.

 

Trish

Yeah. Right. And just one last question. So what do you think of those guidelines? Do you think because like, they’re there for they say they’re there for patient safety and it’s really funny because I started my blog for that very reason to patient safety because I’d had an experience that might, it wasn’t a bad experience, but afterwards was a bad experience. My recovery was not well, and that’s when I tried to reach out to people to say, what’s going on? And that’s how I kind of even got into this industry. So what do you think of the guidelines?

 

Dr Toni

Personally, I think the screening guidelines in particular, I think, are really helpful. I think there

for surgical and non surgical, I think non surgical procedures, even with fillers, with injectables, people see it as, okay, it’s really minor. It’s not a big deal. Like, why do I need to go through this lengthy process? But when you start getting injectables, you’re potentially committing to doing those for the next 30, 40 years, if so it’s still a big decision. Even though one treatment is not necessarily a big decision, the long term journey you’re committing to is. And so I think it’s really helpful for both. And again, it’s about just equipping people with more knowledge and helping them inform choices. And really, providing extra support if support is needed. And so I think overall, it’s a good thing. I think they’ll be teething problems, and they have been teething problems already, I’m sure. And it’ll just take some time before it’s a normal process. Overall, I think it can be really helpful for patients and for practitioners as well.

 

Trish

So does that mean if I’m a new patient and I go into a clinic, do I have to have a screening questionnaire or something that is compulsory for me to complete now? Before, okay. Which means that if someone wasn’t doing that, you’d wanna be aware of getting that job, that very first job. So it’s legal. It’s illegal now not to do that. It’s that right?

 

Dr Toni

Exactly. So, yeah, the guidelines are a little bit stricter for surgery compared to non surgical. So, with surgery, they have to be using a validated screening tool. So that they certainly, if you’re going in for a surgical consult and there’s no discussion, no questionnaire about your psychological well-being. That might be a bit of a red flag. And now for injectables, I think there’s more guidelines probably to come in the next couple of months. I think it will probably be the same. And so it’s definitely something to look out for. 

 

Trish

Well, it’s funny because I’ve had a gastric sleeve. And before I had that there was a psychologist there that you had to actually say before they even took you that next step. So you know, it’s probably we’re probably gonna be saying more of that sort of thing like nutritionist, psychologists, more well-being people involved in the clinics because it’s all although there’s aesthetics, surgery and cosmetics, it’s kind of all combined with wellness and nutrition. It’s all one whole thing. So we might be seeing more combination groups for one of the better worlds, which would be really good as well. 

 

Dr Toni

Of course, with bariatric surgery, that yeah. That’s been the process for many years already, but psychologists are quite embedded in that process. Still relatively new in the cosmetic surgery space. But I think, yeah, patients can only benefit from that, from having more professionals involved in their care and more holistic treatments and more support from all angles to get better outcomes.

 

Trish

Yep. That might just happen in a night. Yeah. Oh, awesome. Well, before we go I’ll go say thank you so much for your time, ‘cos I know you have a good little baby. And I know how hard that is because I’m a grandmother of a few, so I know what the mums and dads have to go through. So thank you for taking the time. We’ve tried to book this in for ages. Hey.

 

Dr Toni
No. Thank you. They’re so lovely. It’s been a pleasure to be able to talk about something else than nappies and baby poo so I really enjoyed it.

 

Trish

And just before you go, I’ll just mention, so your website where that is for your business is readymind.com.au. The people could just go on there and have a look, have a read, because I’ve been reading it this morning, and it’s just got really it’s worth just reading it anyway.

 

Dr Toni

Thank you. Yes. It’s a good resource for patients themselves. So if they’re interested in booking in, you know, a chat with the psychologist, before getting a surgery or procedure, you can definitely do that through the website. Good practitioners as well if they’re interested in how to screen their patients, what sort of screening questionnaires are available. And who to refer them on to for further support. There’s also some great information about that on the website.

 

Trish

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

 

Dr Toni

My pleasure, Trish. So lovely to talk to you again.

 

Trish

Thanks a lot. Have a great day. You too. Bye.

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